Stuart's interview on BCB Radio

Here's an automatically generated transcript of the interview. I haven't quality checked it so please forgive any weird transcriptions.

Host 1: We have got civil celebrant Stuart Morris in the studio with us here at the Radio Box. And Stuart was involved in last week's major wedding reform to boost the local economy. Stuart is based in North Yorkshire. He was in London last week aboard a boat on the Thames—he did not go swimming, thankfully—and he was announcing with the then Deputy PM a huge change in marriage reform that he has been campaigning for for over 10 years. And he's been working with the government on that, and he runs the largest celebrant training company in the world right here from Yorkshire. So there are a lot of great things that do come from Yorkshire, and this is one of those things. Stuart, welcome to the Radio Box, and thank you for being here.

Stuart Morris: Thank you very much. It's 40 years since I was last in the middle of Bradford.

Host 1: Really? You need to come more often!

Stuart Morris: I do.

Host 1: It's beautiful. It has changed a lot.

Stuart Morris: Yes.

Host 1: It's changed a lot, and there's a lot of great things that are now happening in Bradford. You should come back.

Stuart Morris: And I've lost my Yorkshire accent.

Host 1: Oh, no!

Stuart Morris: I grew up in West Yorkshire and then went south for far too long.

Host 1: Yes, we need to get that back for you! But onto this topic about the wedding reforms that are happening. And I had asked you this before because I think it will be great for our listeners to hear... there has been a lot of talk about this in the media. So, is there actually a change at this moment, or is it a consultation for a potential change? Can you tell us a little bit more about that?

Stuart Morris: Yeah, sure. So at the moment, it's just a consultation that runs until, I think it's the 24th of September. And then the Ministry of Justice will bring forward legislation based on the results of that consultation period. It could be law within a year, it might take two, it might never happen. You know, it's up to the government. And I've got a letter going to Andy Burnham today to say, "Come on, this is something that's a quick win. It's an easy win, it's good for the economy, it's good for couples. There's no downside to this." And so we're hopeful that it'll happen fairly soon.

Host 1: I'm glad. And one thing as well, I think we do have to note that you have been campaigning for 10 years for a change in this. And am I right in saying that you saw that there were some areas that could be changed? Because I think you mentioned before that there were some areas of discrimination that were happening for people...

Stuart Morris: If we look at the way that marriage law in England and Wales especially has evolved over the last thousand years, essentially, it was the church that controlled marriage. Before Henry VIII, that would have been the Catholic Church, then it became the Church of England. And obviously, various bits of legislation have changed over a long period of time. It's a very boring subject; we could talk for hours on it.

But then in the 20th century, it was recognized that there were fewer and fewer people who were regarding themselves as Church of England as their faith, and that there were other Christian denominations, other faiths, and people who didn't have a clearly defined faith. And so we started getting the use of registrars being able to do legal marriage at your local council office. And then people realized that they might want a wedding at a hotel or somewhere, so buildings became licensed, and so the registrar would come to the building and deliver the wedding.

But that creates a big disconnect between the registrar who is just doing the legal bit—their job is simply read some words, listen to you read some words, and then sign a piece of paperwork. But what if you're Muslim? So you then have to have a legal ceremony and a faith-based ceremony that are distinct. Even if they happen in the same building, there's a separation there. And Hinduism and other faiths have... the moment of legal marriage is distinct from the moment of ceremonial marriage or faith-based marriage. And the current system doesn't recognize any of these.

So in a sense, the current system is discriminatory—not by design, but just because it was never thought of when it was put together. And so the new proposals mean that your Imam or your priest or whatever can become an authorized celebrant, and the legislation will describe how that's done. But also independent celebrants, like the people I train and like myself, can become registered to take a legal marriage.

And so rather than the current system where you meet your registrar 30 minutes before your wedding, often celebrants will work with the family for 18 months to design the ceremony that's just about them, that is exactly what they want on the day. And so it's much more personal.

Combining that, it will reduce cost because people won't have to go to the big country house hotels or the big venues that have got a wedding license. They can use almost anywhere—it's got to be dignified—but they can also have the ceremony that's what they want: the words that they want. It can have any readings. It doesn't have to be just Christian readings or just Islamic readings or just Hindu readings. If it's meaningful for that couple—if they're a mixed-faith couple—then they can have ceremonies from both elements, whether led by an independent celebrant or an officiant of their faith. It's up to them.

But actually, more importantly, it allows disabled people, people who are neurodiverse, who find the current system incredibly difficult to navigate... You still have to go through the same legal checks and balances: are you able to get married, you're not brother and sister or something like that, or two brothers or two sisters or whatever it is. But somebody who might have difficulty speaking has difficulty getting married in the current system because you've got to read these words.

Host 1: Oh, wow.

Stuart Morris: And there aren't that many variations for somebody who's deaf, whereas the new system would allow you to design something that works for you as a couple.

Host 2: I didn't appreciate how far-reaching this change would be in terms of the discrimination, because I guess I never really thought about it, to be honest. But when you say it, the level of discrimination is astonishing.

Stuart Morris: Yeah, and people have just ignored it and worked around it, especially these days where so many couples just live together. It sort of... it doesn't get in the way. But when we think of the difference between... You know, I have a fairly dangerous hobby, and my girlfriend, if I had an accident and ended up in hospital, my girlfriend who lives with me and helps me run my business couldn't say to the doctors, "Enough. Let me turn it off," because she's not my wife.

Host 1: Yes.

Stuart Morris: Whereas my children are my next of kin. So there is a protection that marriage gives to couples, whether it's heterosexual or not, it really doesn't matter. It provides a system of... this is the core family unit, and it provides protection for the spouse in a breakup. A divorce is a formal process where the assets are distributed, whereas if you've just been living together, there is no formal process, and so it's messy.

Host 1: Yeah.

Stuart Morris: When you start delving into it—and this is why it's become such an important part of my life—the rites of passage for all of us are such important things. We've been doing weddings, funerals, baby namings, and coming-of-age ceremonies for 200,000 years. And we definitely know that it wasn't Christianity or Islam or Judaism or any of the current faiths that those people way back then believed. We have no idea what they believed, really. But they did believe it was important to welcome a new child into the family, to get married, and to say goodbye. So it's sort of: hello, I love you, goodbye.

Host 1: So you train celebrants currently?

Stuart Morris: Yeah.

Host 1: If this becomes legislation, is it going to change how you work or what you do, or to what extent?

Stuart Morris: Yeah. So we will have to add training to allow people to do the legal marriage part, and we're working with the Ministry of Justice to work out what that looks like: what will the paperwork look like and what must the celebrant do?

So, the International College of Professional Celebrants—sorry, it's so long—that's who we are, because we've got members all over the world, but we train at this beautiful retreat center on the Yorkshire Dales National Park.

Host 1: What does it take to become a celebrant? I only know one person who is a celebrant, and I'm afraid that conversation didn't extend to how...

Stuart Morris: Many celebrants aren't trained at all. And I always worry about those people because they don't know the things that they don't know. Would you trust somebody who's never cut hair before to cut your hair? In my case, there's not a lot of hair, so it'd be fine! But so we do a week's intensive course, and at the end of that, they can go out and they can do it.

But also there's a qualification, which takes a year to do, and we've designed that so that if they're dyslexic or autistic or ADHD, they can still access the training materials. And it's a Level 3, so equivalent of an A-level qualification, and it can be done at home in your own time over a year whilst you're doing the job and learning about the job more. So there are places you can go to train just online, but I really strongly feel you need to do it in person because we talk about some really difficult stuff. Funerals are a complex thing, too.

Host 1: They very much are. I attended one earlier on this year for a young boy. It was heartbreaking. However, they handled it with such grace and such compassion, because the boy I think was only eight or nine at the time. And it really, really struck me. I remember speaking with the gentleman, and I was like, "How do you handle that?" Because it's a child.

Anyway, I digress there. I actually wanted to ask you, with the consultation, and especially considering how long you've been pushing for this change of law, what would the ideal look like for you, who's been on the frontline fighting and pushing for this?

Stuart Morris: I think the fastest it could possibly happen would be next summer. But if Andy Burnham is going to get on with all of the things that he's trying to get on with, I think that might be unrealistic, just parliamentary time. It should be possible within a couple or three years to have this sorted.

Host 1: I meant in terms of, not just legal, what would that mean? Because right now, like we've been talking, people can only get married in certain spaces. What would that change of law look like practically?

Stuart Morris: As soon as we know when it is—if we say, "Right, it's going to happen in September next year"—people would start booking weddings now, very differently, almost immediately. And that would have an economic boost for smaller venues, different venues. It would have an almost immediate positive economic effect in the area.

Host 1: Yeah, because some people literally get married twice!

Stuart Morris: One session, yeah, absolutely. And it would save a lot of money, but spend more money in more meaningful ways.

Host 1: Yeah, because I know for me, I'm African, and if I was to get married back home in my home country in Malawi, we could have one wedding ceremony and that would be legalized. But if I do that in the UK, it would have to be two separate ceremonies. So when you're talking about that... yeah, I get that.

And I was also imagining with the interfaith one, if, let me say for example, a Jewish person was to marry a Christian, or a Muslim was to marry a Christian, or any of the others, or even an atheist and somebody who believed, and they had different traditions that they wanted to do...

Stuart Morris: Just quickly, I know we're trying to wrap up: I had an example where two guys, one from a very fundamentalist Christian background, one from a very traditional Buddhist background. Neither set of parents were very happy that their son was marrying another guy; neither set of priests would take the interfaith ceremony.

And so I designed a ceremony for the guys that respected both sets of family traditions. We included Christian elements, we included Buddhist elements. And one of the most beautiful things: the two guys served in a Chinese tea ceremony tea to their parents on their knees as a mark of respect to their parents. And both sets of parents kind of got over themselves and went, "Actually, you know what? I see that you're honoring all of us here."

And that was several years ago now, and in December I was in Los Angeles, actually taking a funeral in Los Angeles—I do ceremonies all over the world—and I met up with the guys because that's where they've moved to, and we had a baby naming ceremony for their little boy. So in a way, I've become their family priest, not because I have any spiritual leadership role, but because I understand who they are and where they're coming from.

Host 1: That's such a beautiful story. It just shows, you know, what's in here that is important.

Stuart Morris: Exactly. It's not about me; it's about the families that I serve.

Host 1: Absolutely. Right, on that note, it's been a fascinating conversation, and I wish you all the very best. And I hope this does become law, because it sounds like it's going to be an important piece of legislation that touches perhaps many more people than we actually are conscious of at this time.

Stuart Morris: It's the biggest change in marriage legislation for 200 years.

Host 1: And at the end of consultation, we'll have to have you come back and talk about what the next steps are.

Stuart Morris: Great time.

Host 1: Right, okay. So that's thanks to Stuart Morris, civil celebrant. Thank you so much for coming to talk to us.